Low End Mac on Google Groups


A general discussion list for Mac users

updated July 30, 2000

MacToMac is a forum for users of Apple Macintosh and other Mac OS computers. Unlike most other Mac lists, MacToMac has become the place for Mac owners to discuss pretty much anything (religion, politics, economics, gas prices, beer, cars, the environment, etc.) except the Macintosh. MacToMac tends to be a pretty busy list with lots of different conversations. It's your dime - but please don't flame.

WARNING: Users are advised that Microsoft Outlook Express comes equipped with a junk email (spam) filter which, when turned on, may relegate legitimate emails, such as electronic greeting cards from family or friends to the junk mail folder, and dispose of them according to the user's preferences.

From Microsoft

Microsoft is aware that Outlook Express 5 Macintosh Edition's Junk Mail Filter may identify as suspicious some email messages that a user may want to read. Microsoft is working closely with industry experts to improve the Junk Mail Filter to help people better separate wanted and unwanted messages. For example, we recently learned that the subscription-based TidBITS newsletter was identified as suspicious. To assure that any wanted email, such as the TidBITS newsletter, is not marked by the Junk Mail Filter, please use any one of the following quick and easy solutions:
  1. Add the address of the mailing list to your Address Book
  2. Add the domain name of the Sender (e.g., tidbits.com) to the exception list in the Junk Mail filter
  3. Use the Mailing List Manager to create a Mailing List Rule for that Sender

How can I subscribe to MacToMac?

There are two ways to receive MacToMac: as individual email messages or in digest mode. In digest mode, messages are collected by the list server and sent as part of one larger message once per day. This is less immediate than message mode, but also greatly reduces mailbox clutter.

Please be sure the return address is correct before subscribing - the list server will use your return address as your subscription address.

To help prevent spammers from using the list, and to keep others from subscribing your address without your approval, you will receive a note from the list server asking you to confirm your subscription. Simply reply as instructed and your subscription will be active.

Please report any subscription problems to the list mom, Andrew Michael MacTao.

What's a digest? Do I want it?

MacToMac normally generates quite a number of messages per day. If you would rather get a whole day's messages in a few large emails instead of a lot of individual ones, you can switch to digest mode by sending an email to the address listed in the footer of each message.

In digest mode, you will receive all messages daily, bundled in the order they reached the list server.

How can I get off MacToMac?

Instructions for unsubscribing are in the footer of each posting. If those instructions don't work, contact Andrew Michael MacTao.

Please report any subscription problems to the list mom at Andrew Michael MacTao.

What other commands are available?

Substitute MacToMac for listname in the following:

  • to subscribe, send email to <listname-subscribe@mail.maclaunch.com> or <listname-on@mail.maclaunch.com>
  • to subscribe in digest mode or switch to digest mode, send email to <listname-digest@mail.maclaunch.com>
  • to receive individual messages in feed mode send email to <listname-feed@mail.maclaunch.com>
  • to be removed from the list (unsubscribe), send email to <listname-unsubscribe@mail.maclaunch.com> or <listname-off@mail.maclaunch.com>
  • to switch to null (vacation) mode, send email to <listname-null@mail.maclaunch.com>

You cannot change your subscribed address. When switching to a new email address, you need to subscribe from the new address, confirm that subscription, and unsubscribe from the old address.

Who sponsors MacToMac?

Dan Knight of Low End Mac http://lowendmac.com/ created MacToMac, which was begun on May 10, 1999. The list was set free on July 20, 2000, and is now managed by Andrew Michael MacTao.

Is MacToMac only for Mac users?

While anyone may subscribe, this list is especially those using Macs.

How does an email list work?

Anyone who has access to internet email may subscribe to MacInSchool using the subscription address MacToMac-on@mail.maclaunch.com to join the list. Subscribers will receive a copy of every message sent to the posting address, MacToMac@mail.maclaunch.com. If you wish to reply or post a new message everyone on the list, send email, either replying the message to which you are responding or sending a new one, to MacToMac@mail.maclaunch.com.

The list is set up so selecting "Reply" in your emailer will send a message to the entire list. If you wish to respond individually to the sender of the message, be sure to address your message accordingly. There should be no need to copy messages to both the author and the list, since the author is a member of the list.

What is netiquette?

There are informal rules of the internet which are termed "netiquette" to help people use proper etiquette within this form of communication. For more on list netiquette, click here, then use the back button on your browser to return to this page.

Who is on the list?

That would be telling.

Because the list software requires an email address but not a name, I may not have names of all subscribers on the list. We currently have 75 subscribers.

How can I get a copy of the email addresses on the list?

You can't. To communicate with the list, send messages to the posting address MacToMac@mail.maclaunch.com. We have deliberately blocked any access to the subscriber list to prevent it from being harvested by spammers.

What topics may be discussed?

Anything relating to Macs, but especially general issues that don't really fit the focus of the hardware-based lists (Vintage Macs, Quadlist, PowerMacs, PowerBooks, etc.). MacToMac is an unmoderated closed list. Unmoderated means messages are sent to the list without prior knowledge of the list mom; closed means only subscribers may post. (The list was closed to prevent spam.)

Because the list is closed, you will only be able to post from a subscribed address.

What tone is expected in the discussion and who will facilitate this?

This has become a kind and helpful community. Since Mac users range from beginners to gurus, please be tolerant of "dumb" questions.

Please report any major breach of netiquette to the list mom, Andrew Michael MacTao.

Is there an accessible archive of messages sent to MacToMac?

Yes, MacLaunch/MacLists maintains a searchable archive of all their email lists at http://mail.maclaunch.com/lists/.

Do you have any policies about selling products or services on the list?

Some of the experts on any list gain their expertise professionally. For those who make a living selling equipment or services, we have the following guidelines.

  1. List members may mention the availability of commercial services or products on the list, but no prices. (Individuals may list personal equipment with prices.)
  2. All correspondence regarding services or products should be conducted privately, not on the list.
  3. Neither the publisher nor the list mom makes any claim regarding services or products offered by members of the list.

What about the weekly email swap meet?

Every Monday the list is open to members listing their surplus Macintosh and Mac related hardware. It is recommended that sellers outside the U.S. specify their location. Please be sure to reply directly to the individual selling the item, not to the list.

I subscribed, but get no messages. What's up?

Google Groups can be set so that "no email" is the default option, and all of our lists were inadvertently set that way. We have since set them so subscribers will receive individual emails as the default. My apologies.

It's possible (but not easy) to subscribe with an incorrect email address. The list server checks all bounced messages to determine why they bounced. If the address is invalid, it is removed from the subscriber list. If the problem is temporary, like a full mailbox, the server temporarily suspends your subscription. If this results in still more bounces, the server will eventually remove the address.

If you are subscribing from a free email account, note that some of these services are very busy and messages may bounce. This can even happen with commercial services, and Apple's .mac seems to experience this frequently. If this persists, it could lead to your name being removed the list. We recommend you to use an ISP account for the list instead of a free email service.

We take a hard line against unsolicited commercial email. To prevent spam, the list is closed and certain domains are blocked by the mail server and the list server.

I sent a reply to the list, but I never received a copy.

Google Groups sometimes makes the assumption that you know what you've posted, so you don't need to receive a copy; there's no way we can change that if it happens. However, your posting will show up online and you will see it if you receive the list in digest form.

I subscribed, but I can't post.

Google Groups requires you to confirm and verify your subscription before you can post. And, like most email lists, their software may not me@recognize mail.domain.com and me@domain.com as being the same. Make sure the From: and Reply-to: address in your email client match the address you used to join the list.

I have had reports of people who are subscribed and unable to post. If this happens to you, please forward your message to so we can investigate. We're still learning how Google Groups works, and Google Groups remains in beta.

I sent a message, but it never appeared. Why?

There are several possible reasons a posting can bounce.

  • You may not have confirmed your subscription yet. Until you do so, you are not officially on the list and thus unable to post.
  • Your return address may not match the address you subscribed from (for instance, the server sees "yourname@mail.maclaunch.com" and "yourname@maclaunch.com" as different addresses). The list server uses your return (reply to) address to confirm that you are subscribed to the list and allowed to post.
  • You may have sent email which contains an attachment, styled text, or something other than plain text.
  • You may have inadvertently sent your message to the wrong address. Never use the "listname-requests" address.
  • Your mail server may have appended something to your email which changes your return address so that it no longer matches the subscribed address. I've only seen that with Yahoo mail so far.

Do you have any policies about selling products or services on the list?

I've learned that some of the experts on any list gain their expertise professionally. For instance, I was the information systems manager for an 85 Mac network. For those who make a living selling equipment or services, we have the following guidelines.

  1. List members may mention the availability of commercial services or products on the list, but no prices. (Individuals may list personal equipment with prices.)
  2. All correspondence regarding services or products should be conducted privately, not on the list.
  3. Neither the publisher nor the list mom makes any claim regarding services or products offered by members of the list.

To simplify things, we set up the Low End Mac Swap List as a place for list members to buy, sell, and trade Mac-related goods.

For the most part, items for sale should be listed on the Swap List, which has over 2,200 subscriptions. We make exceptions for the international lists (Australia, Canada, UK), the non-Mac lists (Apple II, Lisa, Newton), and items that would only be of interest to members of a specific list. Keep in mind that the swap list is generally the best place to list items for sale, since it has more subscribers than any of the other lists.

That said, the swap list is a very busy list, and we don't think anyone should have to subscribe just so they can sell a personal item or system, so we do allow posting of items for sale on all lists - but only when they are specifically related to that list. That means no posting Quadras for sale on the iMac list, for instance.

To avoid this list turning into a swapfest, we restrict subscribers to one such postings per calendar year

We discourage posting links to your eBay and other online auctions, and such postings are explicitly forbidden on the swap list. We also discourage links to other items available through online auctions unless they are unusual and of special interest to that list, such as the Piña tomes covering vintage Macs.

Do you block any specific domains?

We are firmly committed to the free exchange of information on our lists. Some mail servers censor incoming email - orvis.com in particular. We don't take preemptive action against subscribers using such mail servers, but we do reserve the right to unceremoniously unsubscribe them without advance notice when their content filters "quarantine" list messages.

If you receive a "quarantine" message, please forward it to the so we can deal with it. Thanks!

Dan Knight,

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